Bob Muller and the Evil hosts

Daniel~

Daniel~

Chief BBS Administrator
Staff member
This case is so far reaching it may take down half the republican party.
Is anyone else glued to the news each night?

Is this the death of democracy or it's rebirth?

And DAMN! These kids! They are the change I wish to see. They have no choice they are fighting for their lives. They are begging us to stop the shootings, to dump the guns.

Mostly I just want to hear what others think. Interesting times are they not?
 
Daniel~ said:
And DAMN! These kids! They are the change I wish to see. They have no choice they are fighting for their lives. They are begging us to stop the shootings, to dump the guns.
Click to expand...

Sigh.

This is always dangerous ground to tread, but I'm going to try.

First, let's just get the platitudes out of the way. Yes, it's tragic these kids died. It's horrible, and if my children had been among those involved, I might have a different thinking than I do.

And before we even go there, can we please leave out the whole "You just don't care" argument? It brings nothing useful to the conversation.

That said, let's imagine for a moment that guns were illegal in the United States.

What is it we imagine would have changed with respect to this particular incident?
 
First the dead are Dead. Beyond our help. So what can we do for the living. Well Australia banned gun more that a decade ago. Zero gun casualties since.

I would give up pretty near everything bur our freedom for zero casualties.

We as a people are not mature enough to have guns freely available.

I've said this before, but as people are not constantly repeating what I said, I'll keep saying it until they are.

Every day Millions of parents,grandparents and siblings are dressing the the youngest handing them there lunch and sending them off to meet this world unarmed and unprotected.

They walk the same streets as the most powerful among us. They walk in innocence and so for the most part unafraid. Unafraid because they believe and trust in us! Imagine, they trust us!

If we send the most helpless out to face the world unarmed.

Why can we not summon the courage to do as we ask them to do. To face this world helpless (For we truly are helpless, there is no defense against this world. There is only our individual fates.}

when we do not keep weapons at far remove from them; Are we lying to our kids when we tell them that they will be fine? When we tell them "We've got this, we will keep you safe"
"We have done everything we can to insure you of your safety?

Do we mean safe from everything except our fear to ourselves go unarmed?

This has to stop even if it drives every gun owner in America to tears,

No more dead babies shot to shit to preserve out "Right to bear arms"
 
Daniel~ said:
First the dead are Dead. Beyond our help. So what can we do for the living. Well Australia banned gun more that a decade ago. Zero gun casualties since.
Click to expand...

First, this is factually inaccurate "Zero gun casualties since", NOT TRUE! Australia has had gun casualties in EVERY year since 1996, when the Port Arthur massacre occurred.

Second, this is ALSO factually inaccurate "Australia banned guns more than a decade ago", NOT TRUE! Australia banned automatic and some semi-automatic weapons. Australia did NOT ban gun ownership.

In the specific case of the Florida shooting, there are some legitimate questions to be asked; the chief one being "Why was he allowed to purchase a firearm?". From my understanding, he had a history of mental instability.

The laws we have are not being well applied. In that environment, what on earth makes you think that MORE laws will IMPROVE things?

More generally, here are some things that we need to look at very hard:

Fully 80% of all crimes involving guns are carried out with STOLEN weapons. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...long-time-about-crime/?utm_term=.e93d2e448d70

Fully 40% of stolen weapons aren't reported as stolen until AFTER a crime is committed (from the article above).

We can't continue this. If we are serious about preventing guns from falling into the hands of those who shouldn't have them, then we have to start holding accountable those who are careless with them to start with. I have no problem with the concept of a 14-day wait; I could even be talked into a 30-day wait. We should also tighten down the 'straw purchaser' loophole. ANY gun transaction should require a background check, even if it is between two private individuals. ANY gun transaction should require registration with the relevant authorities. Failure to do so should involve jail time. MOST of these things are ALREADY LAW. We just need to have the will to enforce them.

Daniel~ said:
If we send the most helpless out to face the world unarmed.

Why can we not summon the courage to do as we ask them to do. To face this world helpless (For we truly are helpless, there is no defense against this world. There is only our individual fates.}
Click to expand...

This is a fallacious argument, and you should know better. We don't give our kids knives or fireworks or cars for exactly the same reasons we don't give them guns; they don't know how to handle them, and it is OUR job to protect them. We can have a discussion about whether or not adults know how to handle guns, but YOUR argument is a straw man intended for the intellectually insipid. You are better than this.
 
You sir you beg the question. Put another way. How many kids have to die in the war to preserve gun rights the Constitution NEVER guaranteed any one not in a state militia.

My assertion about Australia gun deaths comes from a half dozen sources, broadcast News. most recently Jim Jeffreys On Real Time HBO. TV news has made this assertion a half dozen times in the last two years

WE don't give kids guns. Why are we afraid they might kill themselves or others. Then let's not give adults guns as they DO and we stink at guessing which one is going to pop his cork next. Why because we live shit lives that kill all our own dreams.

And a great many of us ca no longer take it. Things happen to good people that turn them inside out. You may be sane today in this world who can say about tomorrow.

That is what recreational heavy drug users leave out of account. You can chip for decades and never get into a fix.

But you lose your job, or your wife dies or your kid and you find you are no loner that guy with to many good things to ever let the drugs take over.

How many kids dead is to high a price to pay ?
 
Hate boils over for some people. It would be nice if buying guns was much more difficult for people who shouldn't have them.
Too many of us worship money above people in real life. Ergo "sell, sell, sell!" Sell that gun.
 
Daniel~ said:
the Constitution NEVER guaranteed any one not in a state militia.
Click to expand...
You need to read the 2nd amendment again, VERY carefully.

The 2nd amendment does indeed say "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State". This is why I don't have a particular problem with efforts to ensure that guns are only in the hands of people who actually know how to use them. I think we could do wonders if EVERYONE took a gun safety course, and stopped looking at guns as some romantic 'cowboy' implement, and realize that they are DEADLY.

It also goes on to say
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed"

Let me ask you something: given the repeated use of 'the people' in other places in the constitution to clearly refer to the general public, why is it that folks persist in twisting THIS wording to mean "only if you're in the military, or the police, or some other GOVERNMENT sanctioned body"?

Daniel~ said:
My assertion about Australia gun deaths comes from a half dozen sources, broadcast News. most recently Jim Jeffreys On Real Time HBO. TV news has made this assertion a half dozen times in the last two years
Click to expand...

Daniel, please, spend 5 minutes on Google. You can either use your own search terms, or you can use the links I've provided here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Austrailia gun ban&oq=Austrailia gun ban&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.6111j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://www.google.com/search?ei=Gb2TWpSMPMbYsQX6yJ7ADA&q=australia gun deaths since 1996&oq=Austrailia gun deaths&gs_l=psy-ab.3.3.0i10k1l5j0i22i30k1l2j0i22i10i30k1.50345.51118.0.53143.6.6.0.0.0.0.102.491.5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.488....0.m74jVTYFFjg

Daniel~ said:
Then let's not give adults guns as they DO and we stink at guessing which one is going to pop his cork next. Why because we live shit lives that kill all our own dreams.
Click to expand...

Then rather than further eroding our freedoms, let's do something about the shit lives we live.

[edit]Remove some of the snarkiness in my post; it was unproductive[/edit]
 
Last edited:
ThunderRd said:
The US has roughly 5 times the number of guns per 100 people, and roughly 10 times the number of gun-related deaths. [according to the Wiki]
Click to expand...

As I alluded above, this seems to me to be indicative of a deeper problem. WHY are people driven to a point where they think they need to solve problems at gunpoint? If we address THAT problem, the other will take care of itself, IMO.
 
Gizmo said:
As I alluded above, this seems to me to be indicative of a deeper problem. WHY are people driven to a point where they think they need to solve problems at gunpoint? If we address THAT problem, the other will take care of itself, IMO.
Click to expand...

I was going to stay out of this conversation as I was tought that any conversation dealing with politics or religion was bound to end badly. That being said-here goes nothing.

Gizmo is right in one respect. We, as a society, are at the pointy end of the spear on this stuff. IMO changeing gun laws will have little or no effect on anything. There are just to many guns out there.

I look back at society and it has changed a lot in the way we deal with guns. Guns were always in our house,Hanging on racks just off the kitchen. My first was a 22 given to me for Christmas at age 12 or 13.

During deer season, driveing through the high school parking lot, it was a rare pick-up that did not have a rifle in the back window rack.None were ever brought into school. At 16, I could go, and did, to the local feed store and buy a case of dynamite and caps.

Society isn't going to take us back to those days. Gun laws won't take us back either.
 
ThunderRd said:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Clearly shows Australia has plenty of guns [22 guns per 100 inhabitants], and about 1 in 100,000 per year killed in a gun-related incident of some kind.

The US has roughly 5 times the number of guns per 100 people, and roughly 10 times the number of gun-related deaths. [according to the Wiki]
Click to expand...

This is my bad. They haven't I believe had any mass shootings. But as stated my sources are not impeccable, these things have a life of there own. Like America, Australia has a lot of "outback" Where gun possession is or almost is a necessity.

What I'd be willing to bet is that no one but us gives them to kids and lunatics,in urban settings.

Gizmo, AS what shall not be infringed upon is the right of the people to bare arms in a"Well regulated" state militia in order to oppose the feds if necessary.The states feared federal power If you think about it the first thing a new small town in America did was ban guns. Banning guns was the first step in having a reasoned discourse. And peaceful elections,

But for me none of this can possibly matter as long as kids are falling. If we are not willing to sacrifice EVERYTHING to save them then we are not only unworthy of them. Worse we fail our biological imperative

Which is to if possible raise better people than we are. Show me a way to keep guns and kids at a great distance from each other and we don't have a disagreement.
 
Gizmo said:
Daniel, please, spend 5 minutes on Google. You can either use your own search terms, or you can use the links I've provided here:

https://www.google.com/search?ei=Gb2TWpSMPMbYsQX6yJ7ADA&q=australia gun deaths since 1996&oq=Austrailia gun deaths&gs_l=psy-ab.3.3.0i10k1l5j0i22i30k1l2j0i22i10i30k1.50345.51118.0.53143.6.6.0.0.0.0.102.491.5j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.6.488....0.m74jVTYFFjg

Is where I found this:

In 1996, Australia passed the National Firearms Agreement after a mass shooting in Tasmania in April of that year. In that incident, a 28-year-old man, armed with a semi-automatic rifle, shot and killed 35 people, and injured 18 others, in what was known as the Port Arthur Massacre.

Under the 1996 law, Australia banned certain semi-automatic, self-loading rifles and shotguns, and imposed stricter licensing and registration requirements. It also instituted a mandatory buyback program for firearms banned by the 1996 law.

During the buyback program, Australians sold 640,000 prohibited firearms to the government, and voluntarily surrendered about 60,000 non-prohibited firearms. In all, more than 700,000 weapons were surrendered, according to a Library of Congress report on Australian gun policy. One study says that the program reduced the number of guns in private hands by 20 percent.

In 2002, Australia further tightened gun laws, restricting the caliber, barrel length and capacity for sport shooting handguns.

Since 1996, the number and rate of homicides — defined as murder and manslaughter — has fallen. Below is the chart that appeared in our 2009 Ask FactCheck article, showing a 20 percent decline in homicides from 1996 to 2007.

homicides_australia_chart2007.jpg


We wrote at the time: “Have murders increased since the gun law change, as claimed? Actually, Australian crime statistics show a marked decrease in homicides since the gun law change. According to the Australian Institute of Criminology, a government agency, the number of homicides in Australia did increase slightly in 1997 and peaked in 1999, but has since declined to the lowest number on record in 2007, the most recent year for which official figures are available.”

The crime statistics above were taken from the AIC’s annual report called “Australian crime: facts and figures 2008.” The most recent report, “Australian crime: facts and figures 2014,” which was released last year, shows that homicides remained low through 2013."

Gizmo posted:

"Then rather than further eroding our freedoms, let's do something about the shit lives we live.

[edit]Remove some of the snarkiness in my post; it was unproductive[/edit]
Click to expand...
"

I'm trying Dude I know you are as well. Snakiness is always a danger when discussing matters where opinions are deeply held
. I have to keep my finger off the trigger as well.":O}

Here's something that adds to my concerns. If we never made or sold another gun in America, we would have have, How many guns per capita?

The guns now in existence, bought say 20 years ago No one knows where they are. Or more importantly when they might be walked into a kindergarten
( From the German, a garden that grows children).

A garden is a place of cultivation.

To cultivate anything the first priority must be to secure the environment, to gain control of and limit the variables... All those guns out there, many are:
"Guns in the hands of minds that are easily bored"
Bob Dylan
 
I am reminded of an observation I made to my son a while back.

Folks who live in the cities and folks who live in rural areas have different outlooks, different requirements, and different problems to solve. Trying to craft a 'one size fits all' solution simply doesn't work. This doesn't mean that city dwellers are wrong in their demands, any more than it means that rural folks are; we are each trying to solve the problems we are presented with in the best fashion we can.

For urbanites, guns are anathema, and with good reason; as you note above, one of the first things many towns in America would do is prevent people from carrying guns (and this is the important part) WHILE IN TOWN. You could drop your gun off at the Sheriff's office, do your business, and then pick up your gun when you left. This was based on the simple observation that people will get into fights, and the more people you crowd into an area, the more likely fights are to happen. Adding guns to the mix is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

Ok, I get it; NOT A GOOD PLAN.

However, in rural communities, most folks are around guns their entire lives; I've handled guns since I was 6. We have a different relationship with weapons, because they are tools for us; it's common for a chicken or even cattle farmer to have to chase off coyotes, among other things.

There's got to be a middle ground we can come to here where we don't blanket outlaw a useful tool because some folks get stupid, while still ensuring the safety of our communities.
 
Daniel~ said:
"

I'm trying Dude I know you are as well. Snakiness is always a danger when discussing matters where opinions are deeply held
. I have to keep my finger off the trigger as well.":O}
Click to expand...

And I appreciate your restraint. :)
 
Well darn! I did read as you asked Gizmo. I wrote a really cool post refuting everything everyone but me had to say....but my dead dog ate it...

How do we stop living shit lives? I can't see anyway except this. One by one we must choose to go another way.
We must say no when what we want may cause another harm.

To give cliché it's due:
We really do have to become the change we want to see. We really can do this. I do this, I know many others here do as well...as long as we do, hope remains in the world.

There is a path before us if we will only take it.
 
Ok, that seems like a good place to leave that.

Now to the other bit of your original post:

Daniel~ said:
This case is so far reaching it may take down half the republican party.
Is anyone else glued to the news each night?

Is this the death of democracy or it's rebirth?
Click to expand...

I rather doubt that it will take down much of the Republican party. There are too many people with too much money who are too well connected. And that's a shame.
 
I fear you may be right. But if backing Trump isn't enough to kill the party....
if declaring him a political monster they would never support, then supporting him...
If treason isn't enough

Hows Canada doing? I hear Americans are flowing across the border since Trumpy-dumpty took office.

Things won't stay the same ya know, if he stays we will fall apart as a country. Most of our crucial infrastructure of Gov. Is STILL unmanned, embassies go un- staffed. In most Gov. departments, there's no one to pick up the phone.

Know why loonies can get guns? Because Trumpy reversed Oboma's directive denying loonies guns.

Believe me my brother, it's him or us.
 
If only it was that easy and simple. Trump's election was brought about by self-serving Democratic Presidents as much as by the electorate. Yes, Hillary won by 2 million popular votes, I don't think the Electoral College serves the people at large very well. At the same time it's within the realm of possibility that she would have been as bad for the little people as is Trump. She IS a warmonger. Trump's current actions vis a vis North Korea are very dangerous. Letting a small very unhappy little country be a threat to his EGO is ludicrous.

Trump is totally unfit to be mayor of a little town. I think Hillary fills the same bill. He because he's an authoritarian Crony Capitalist. She's a mentally ill little monster set on her own personal aggrandizement above the well being of anyone else.

Bill Clinton was a capitalist tool, some of us were foolish enough to believe he was a good guy. Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the repeal of Glass-Steagall were both highly prized by crooked capitalists. Does it sound like I'm too hard on Capitalism?
Probably. But it's important to understand that Capitalism does NOT equal Democracy.

Bush Junior performed many War Crimes in Afghanistan and especially Iraq. The largest world-wide demonstrations in history were against our involvement in Iraq.

Your mileage may vary. The most important fact about Iraq and the USA may be that Obama NEVER held Bush Jr responsible for blatantly obvious war crimes. Instead he whole heartedly made the Presidency MORE of a Unitary Executive position. This means Congress and the Supreme Court be damned, what the President says goes. Period. He also said that the banks should screw the little people into the ground. No head of one of the largest banks was put on trial for their crimes against us.
Obama did nothing for black people. It is sad that so many black people think Obama was a saint. Yes, he was the first black president. Too bad this meant nothing for the man in the street. Again, YMMV. But history proves that the man was a Republican at heart.

All of this malfeasance in office paved the way for Trump. Some say that Trump means nothing real, yet he's a great cover (all Trump-tv all the time)for the Deep State's actions. What Deep State? There are two of them, one favoring Trump and the other that persists in making stupid statements that leave out any fault of the Democrats in losing that election. Frankly, we may never recover any semblance of living in a Democracy. With total surveillance all of the time good luck in really protesting this perverted excuse for a decent society.

I sincerely wish we didn't allow the reigns of Democracy to slip through our fingers. WE watched it happen.
 
Last edited:
Trump and Treason? Surely not in the same phrase or sentence! I wish, I wish the Democratic Central Committee actually stood for what used to be Democratic values. Not a chance, they worship money like the rest of the creatures in WA, DC.

No one is perfect, but I like Florida's erstwhile Congressman Alan Grayson a lot.
 
I believe I am seeing a new party being born in America. One that seeks practical solutions. Neither Democrat nor republican. They may keep the old names, but both will be very different parties.

Dems out number Republicans two to one. If the Supremes strike down Gerrymandering the republicans will have a very difficult time getting elected.

These kids marching in our streets are deliberate and focused. They are registering millions of voters.
They have a commitment written in the blood of their friends and families.

I do not believe they will be distracted by a new I phone or the scoffing of adults. They have a clear goal to strive for and we will all be less if they do not succeed.

Those who know me know that I have long prayed for a change in the hearts of men.
I think this is what that change might look like.
I have to believe in them if I am to believe in a human and humane future.

But as always and to forever in God's hands.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top