Pattern Philosphy

I know. I just wanted to see/hear you say it...it completes the connection for me and puts a great big fat smile on my face!

When we post of matters such as this, it takes me to the very fringes of what I "Think" I see.
I'm a washed with what can only be called inspiration...if we agree to rule out madness.

So I'm never really sure if there's enough there, actually on the page for you guys to figure out what the hell I'm talking about!! Unless we are seeing the same thing. Then you can borrow from your own view to fill in what I was unable to put into words...it just becomes to ..."Pure" for me to see into. ":O}

This is the relationship I seek, to be among others who seek..
The miracle is when souls come together and seek what can be apprehended, but never comprehended

You guys give me joy.
 
ThunderRoad Posted:

ThunderRoad
A corollary of 'everything has a pattern' would/could be that one man, looking for a pattern, does not see it regardless of his efforts; but another, looking at the same scene, but from a different location, sees the pattern clearly and effortlessly.

Would that not be the same as not seeing the pattern as a young man, and then suddenly seeing it clearly as an old man?

Or is it that some men are resistant to perception at any age?
Click to expand...

It my "feeling" The men differ greatly in their ability to look beyond their immoderate personal concerns to what lies undiscovered beneath our every day understanding. At any age,

I "Believe" that insight is a gift that we should rejoice in!
That said:
I also think that once a person is shown a pattern that deeply involves the unfolding of their own life...

Lets just say There are few joys in this life like seeing that light come on in another and watch as the inter connections go tripping up and down the line of their understanding..

Yet there can be many impediments. For Patterns seem always to takes us into the unknown even as they disclose it to us.

The ancient navigators understood that to see a pattern properly, one must do two things. One must stand in the right place but one must also have a fixed point of reference.beyond oneself.

Must first grasp the unchanging within change. For this reason, as I'm sure you know,
they choose the North star to guide them, as the entire sky rotates around it.

Patters are tricky, grab one impulsively by the tail and and we can get an entire wrong idea of what's going on. . Science is always having to correct these misapprehensions
So we look next at "Standing in the "right place"

Here I feel Science has done a wonderful job of delineating what a proper stance should look like... it should look like one following the scientific method.

Method puts us on the right track. it establishes a clear approach. But many follow this approach and never get anywhere in terms of becoming a good human being.

Again this in my "feeling"

To be a whole person there need be something more. To be really good at pattern spotting one needs to cultivate REVERENCE for all that is.

When we try to look at the world with reference we see with our hearts and allow our minds to illuminate our perception. Reverence puts us in line, but does not command perception of the hidden workings of our world.

There still remains the need for something unexplained, and so rarely.if ever understood. Yet apprehended.

We must be "Gifted" with the insight that leads to understanding
Thank you for entertaining my thoughts.":O}
 
Daniel~ said:
The ancient navigators understood that to see a pattern properly, one must do two things. One must stand in the right place but one must also have a fixed point of reference.beyond oneself.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but not quite correct, methinks. Where's the 'right place'?

You can't choose the place from which you observe. It is by definition the place you are in. The pattern itself is always proper, regardless of the place we observe it from. It is a constant. The view might be a bit different if one moves, but it is correct. The navigators didn't say to themselves, 'Oh, I don't like the view from here, let's go someplace else and use this sextant, because this view isn't the optimal view.'

Neither can we. We can only use the results we have to pilot a course to a desired location, if [and only if] we determine that this location isn't desired for some reason. Like the navigators, if we know how to decode the view, we can view the next one in a more predictable manner.
 
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Hmmm wasn't the clearest post I've ever written was it! ":O}

I meant to develop[ the Proper stance thing but failed to.

As the North star is visible everywhere in the northern hemisphere
It can establish a fixed point outside of one self. As it doesn't change we can use it to measure and track the change in the rest of the shy. The north star revels the pattern by standing outside or rather within the rotating sky..
So standing in the right place can and for me does take on another meaning . I mean it to refer to the proper ordering of one's self..

As the north star serves to locate one self in the world, provides the ""where in the world".
The "Arch-type" of man. that I've said I believe is imprinted upon each of us as a guide. tells us who we should be and become.

When you reflect upon it...

We all seem to have a "feeling both of who we each are, but, even in youth, even untaught,
Who we should become. Not what, who.

It's my believe the we know this by way of our innermost pattern.
Someone does me a great wrong and I'm furious. I want to do them harm!
Yet I do not. When I look within and see myself committing crimes against that person...

I just can't justify my actions, I can't match then up with what my pattern requires of me to be myself.

Why not rule the world though power and fear? Many do try.

Pattern IS broken when we do and there is no long term gain available though the use of power without first being in accord with pattern..

I'm not saying that's what I posted, just what I meant to...but I didn't quite find my way there did I ! LOL

One must first assume a proper stance before patten. Have a reverence for pattern. Pattern in this sense in the Lord within us who commands that we sacrifice rather than rape. Love rather than hate.

WE KNOW these things are true! No one need tell us!

That is we know if we have not severed ourselves from ourselves by violating this law of our innermost beings.

We know these things. Yet must choose weather we will live by the pattern of our own existence, or no.

We must first orientate within ourselves to assume a proper stance before the world.

Wow! you guys are actually reading this stuff! LOL
 
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Gizmo said:
That pattern shapes us, but we also shape the pattern. How could it be otherwise?
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Alternatively, we are the pattern. Or at least a pattern among many.

Daniel~ said:
As the north star serves to locate one self in the world, provides the ""where in the world".
The "Arch-type" of man that I've said I believe is imprinted upon each of us as a guide. tells us who we should be and become.
Click to expand...
You cannot locate yourself in physical space using only one point of reference. You need two points of reference for your northing (say, Polaris and the horizon) and two points for easting (exact local time vs. GMT). So you need four additional data plus some mathematics to locate you in physical space.

Following your analogy as best as I'm able (I'm out of practice with your style here), you have the archetype, the ideal, the true north of man to follow, but you need a second frame of reference to determine how close you are to that ideal. Christianity provides for Satan, to provide a baseline for pure evil. So if you accept that there is a perfect good and a perfect evil, it's possible to triangulate your position on this scale from where you're standing. But are you in the right place?

No way to know. Just like you can use Polaris and a sextant and determine that you're 47.359 degrees north. You might be in Ravensdale WA, or you might be lost in the Quinault Reservation, or you might be drowning in the middle of the Pacific. You might also be a thoroughly decent individual, but in completely the wrong place in the pattern.

So... what have I missed? What's the longitude to the archetype's latitude? What else establishes whether you're in the right place or not?
 
As usual, Kaitain says it so much more clearly than I did in my previous post. That is what I was trying to say before; where's the 'right place', and how do we know if we are in it or not?

There's a view of the pattern from anywhere, and they are all viable locations. Which one is 'right'?
 
Kaitain said:
Alternatively, we are the pattern. Or at least a pattern among many.

You cannot locate yourself in physical space using only one point of reference. You need two points of reference for your northing (say, Polaris and the horizon) and two points for easting (exact local time vs. GMT). So you need four additional data plus some mathematics to locate you in physical space.

Following your analogy as best as I'm able (I'm out of practice with your style here), you have the archetype, the ideal, the true north of man to follow, but you need a second frame of reference to determine how close you are to that ideal. Christianity provides for Satan, to provide a baseline for pure evil. So if you accept that there is a perfect good and a perfect evil, it's possible to triangulate your position on this scale from where you're standing. But are you in the right place?

No way to know. Just like you can use Polaris and a sextant and determine that you're 47.359 degrees north. You might be in Ravensdale WA, or you might be lost in the Quinault Reservation, or you might be drowning in the middle of the Pacific. You might also be a thoroughly decent individual, but in completely the wrong place in the pattern.

So... what have I missed? What's the longitude to the archetype's latitude? What else establishes whether you're in the right place or not?
Click to expand...

Damn! I just knew that someone who actually knew how to navigate would come along and step on this attempt to understand my self by way of me:But I just couldn't stop myself from going there!":O}


Sorry, I really haven't been clear, very tired.

What I was trying to get at really isn't a religious statement so much as an observation upon self.

The reliance upon pattern to create and maintain self. Here I often find myself somewhat confused as how I might express what I'm seeing.

There is a fated, predetermined me.
Hair color, size, all that makes up the physical me.All that is me yet lies beyond my power To change

As far as I can tell "I" arise out of and as a part of that Patterned self. That DNA determined self..
.In as much as I have never encountered spirit apart from a flesh and bone body...I'll go with the assumption for now...

Then there is the other, I think of him as the monkey .I slip in and out of being the monkey and being the observer of the monkey, he's quite entertaining all on his own! He grabs at everything he sees and cares not for consequence.!

He seems almost beyond the control of pattern, he's barely rational!
But that just the lie he tells me to get what he wants. Passion holds his leach!

He is the slave of desire. After years of paying for monkeys folly we come to understand that not all of our selves can be allowed to run free, and we cage the little bugger.

I think of monkey as our Natural selves, who we are before reflection. If we leave him caged...he will die. Our passion for life and for love will die with him! He cannot be simply suppressed!

Monkey is at the heart of each of us. He must be saved!
In my view that's why I'm here. To turn one more monkey into a man.":O}

He must be prevented, until he can be brought in line with what I think of as our spiritual selves.

Here things get tricky for me. Spirit arises from our patterned, fated self. Monkey does as well. but monkey has to be returned to his natural place. He seems to have no conception of limitation or residing in ones own place.

Monkey thinks he was born to rage about!

Spirit is very strange. Spirit is self aware and pattern aware and seems determined to make a man out of monkey! To make a man out of me.

For all her independence spirit has a great vulnerability. Being furtherest from our animal selfs she lacks the natural limits of the flesh, she seems as free from fate and the laws of nature as any part of me can be.

If spirit forgets she is here to bring monkey to maturation she corrupts herself with vanity and self admiration.and self-aggrandizement Being furthest from the natural she is lest protected by the natural order.

She's my job! The job of the me!
I must keep her free of malice, envy and hate. I must keep her focused on raising monkey up!

I stand between spirit and monkey. I ask my spirit how to raise my monkey and she tells me... as a mother speaks to her newly born, in a language without words, silent, loving and infinity deep.

IS why I talk such nonsense trying to convey her message to another. trying to tell you of what I feel is most important.

We get into the

"The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy:"

I would add

"The law becomes the energy the energy creates the law"

For me this is such slippery stuff! LOL

Spirit, properly ordered places herself beneath Nature and raise it up!
Elevates the natural. But the natural follows pattern, not spirit and so resists.

Think Tornado now! Spirit in conflict with the natural order! How can it resolved?

Spirit plays her finest card! Just as bloodshed seems inevitable.

She sacrifices herself. She places herself beneath pattern and in a movement without motion transforms them both.
Movement without motion, yeah that's Spirits way in the world! ":O}

The natural all flesh blood and hairiness in this way partakes of the spirit and something truly divine inters the natural world.

Patterns! Who needs them! ":O}

When I leave the known and seek out the unknown within myself every thing can evaporate just as I begin the reach center...

Then I must shield my eyes...to pure, it's just to pure, to completely itself, to be understood from without. and I can only bring back the scraps.
Alas:

"To know of the Tao is not the same as entering the Tao"
 
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Oh no, I didn't mean to step on your analogy - I quite like it and think that developing it could be quite a fun debate :)

"The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy"

Is pithy but I don't quite see it that way. To me that would settle too fast into equilibrium, or harmony as you'd put it, which doesn't fit with the life we see. Energy doesn't do a lot - it flows from places where there is more of it to places where there's less of it until everything's all the same. To direct it, you need structure - the pattern, which bring about rules to say "flow like this". As the energy flows it is erosive, shaping the structure to its needs. Which then changes the rules, which then change its needs... three elements, always in motion, sometimes dominant, sometimes not, sometimes working together, sometimes in opposition. Never the same twice. Chaos at its finest.

The pattern creates the law, the energy obeys the law and in so doing alters the pattern.

I sometimes wonder whether the path to peace isn't to try to understand the play of law, pattern and energy, or of order and mischief, nor to try to control it, but just to be still and enjoy the pretty colours... Ignorance is bliss :)

(但是我特别喜欢孙猴子 - 太搞笑了！）
 
Kaitain said:
Oh no, I didn't mean to step on your analogy - I quite like it and think that developing it could be quite a fun debate :)

"The energy carries the law and the law regulates the energy"

Is pithy but I don't quite see it that way. To me that would settle too fast into equilibrium, or harmony as you'd put it, which doesn't fit with the life we see. Energy doesn't do a lot - it flows from places where there is more of it to places where there's less of it until everything's all the same. To direct it, you need structure - the pattern, which bring about rules to say "flow like this". As the energy flows it is erosive, shaping the structure to its needs. Which then changes the rules, which then change its needs... three elements, always in motion, sometimes dominant, sometimes not, sometimes working together, sometimes in opposition. Never the same twice. Chaos at its finest.

The pattern creates the law, the energy obeys the law and in so doing alters the pattern.

I sometimes wonder whether the path to peace isn't to try to understand the play of law, pattern and energy, or of order and mischief, nor to try to control it, but just to be still and enjoy the pretty colours... Ignorance is bliss :)

(但是我特别喜欢孙猴子 - 太搞笑了！）
Click to expand...

I can't always see what I can sometimes see out there at the edge of my understanding. where I slip all to easily from my perception, clarity lost as I reach for it... Is why I think of perception as a gift.


My guess is that Pattern IS the law.
Energy allows the law to come to expression. This expresses energy. To bring/carry the law of all things.

carring the law is how energy express itself, no law, no energy, so no expression.

The expression of law though energy is Pattern, is Life and death, the coming to be and passing away of all things.

As to things resolving themselves to quickly without added complexity.

"Continuity in change is the secret of the eternity of the universe."

Here energy doesn't have to do much! It is after all regulated by the law it carries, the law inherent within energy itself., it can not say no!
Dig this!
"Energy can neither be created nor destroyed."
Yet everything that energy accomplishes though the law:
"Comes to be and passes away." according to the law.

The law neither comes to be nor passes away.
The law is always so.
The law is never less and never more.

The law is eternal.

This being so:
This simple "pithy" saying express the nexus between the temporal and the Eternal.

It expresses itself both as the unchanging within change and as that which comes to be and passes away.

Eternal law shapes all things though energy, but is not changed from it's own eternal nature...The Law is
always the law and the law is unchanged and the same in all times and all places.

Energy thus regulated continually finds new expressions of the unchanging Law.

The Eternal continually creates the temporal. The temporal continually responds to the urgings of Energy and law., creating the now.
out of Time and the Timeless.

It creates the firm and the yielding.
The light and the dark.
The dry and the wet... on and on the opposites come together and unite and then pass away.
The changing created and nurtured by the unchanging.

So like, if any of this is true;
The unchanging is constantly creating Change!
What an Amazing turn of events!

Basically, as I see it...
The Eternal comes to the "Here and now"
To Party! ":O}
 
Kaitain said:
D~'s previous post just made me think of Sun Wukong - far more entertaining than Loki :)
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Perhaps, but not nearly as well know to those of us who have not ventured abroad.":O}
Perhaps you would be willing to introduce us?
 
The Monkey King is disrespectful of authority, but isn't vicious, to my understanding?

Loki just flat doesn't care what happens as a result of his machinations, as long as it is good for him.
 
Ah! So The Chinese have a Monkey King to!? ":O}

Why don't they call him the "Monkey King" Like we do?

"My Monkey King" comes to me from a movie length Chinese Cartoon, that must have been made in the 50s or 60s.

I watched as a young boy in amazement!

The story of Monkey from a completely mindless, well monkey. To an example of reserve.

His journey rather brutally teaches him to slow his roll.
Once his impulses are controlled he learns at an amazing rate, Self change becomes his passion. Earning him the title "King"

In the End Monkey King had become something of monkish monkey compassionate and very wise.":O}

Now I'll go see if the the Chinese love Monkey King to! ":O}

( My debt to ancient China is without end and can never be re-payed.)
 
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