Dan and George's Republican thread

Unfortunately, whether the Democrats or the Republicans win, we are still in for a shitshow; the only questions are how much and for how long.
... and what will be the final outcome.

One of the more worrying things I see on the news, on social media, and on just general internet, is just how deeply rooted Trump's cult of personality is within sections of society, with the sheer number of people lauding Trump even while his mismanagement of your once-great nation hurts them. Regardless whether you manage to vote down Trump's power, even if he leaves office in good order in 2029, even if his failing health catches up with him before that, Trumpism won't go away.

I've yet to see the emergence of, and am no longer sure America is capable of producing, a true reformer, with the equanimity, integrity, and authority to bring the USA back to its moral centre and heal the rifts created by decades of corruption, complacency, and cronyism. (To be fair, this is a common failure across almost the entire "West").

Outside the US, the emotions expressed in Mark Carney's speech to the WEF are still resonating.

Looks like we get to live in interesting times, after all...
 
There is a certain amount of this that can be written off as the great 'last gasp' of a generation that has had an outsized influence on our politics for 40+ years, simply because of the size of the generation. The Baby Boomers are the largest generation IN HISTORY. That gives them an outsized influence in culture and politics, and they have used that outsized influence to sculpture society to their whims. Now that they are approaching the end of their lives, they are once again forcing society to assume the shape they desire in order to protect themselves, just as they have always done.

To some extent, I can't even blame them for it, when viewed in that light.

Doesn't make it any less painful for the rest of us, though.

That being said, there is a significant portion of our society that feels 'left out', betrayed, and disaffected. I know, because I'm one of them.

The fact is that we have failed a substantial portion of our citizenry, due in no small part to the policies enacted by the Baby Boomers (and let's be honest, GenX, though our influence is almost a rounding error by comparison). That failure is starting to come home to roost in a big way, and things are going to get very nasty until we acknowledge that failure and move to redress it.

So, the big question: can we fix it?

Sure. It just takes the desire to do so.

Will we?

Ah, that's the $64 question, isn't it? I continue to have an abiding faith in the basic good sense of the American people, but for sure we are in for a rocky few years (probably a decade?).

One thing is certain, the United State of America will never be what it once was.

Hopefully, it will be something even better. Not sure if I will live to see that, though. For sure, it isn't on the correct path at the moment, but maybe we are starting to see the change? Tuesday will see. I have no great love for the Democrat party, but the Republicans have lost their damned minds. For people who claim to be Christians, I see very little I believe Christ would want associated with His name, and a great deal that I believe He would be flat out horrified by.
 
There is a certain amount of this that can be written off as the great 'last gasp' of a generation that has had an outsized influence on our politics for 40+ years, simply because of the size of the generation. The Baby Boomers are the largest generation IN HISTORY. That gives them an outsized influence in culture and politics, and they have used that outsized influence to sculpture society to their whims. Now that they are approaching the end of their lives, they are once again forcing society to assume the shape they desire in order to protect themselves, just as they have always done.

To some extent, I can't even blame them for it, when viewed in that light.
The seeds of this were planted a long time ago. In 1987, Margaret Thatcher proudly stated that "there is no such thing as society" quietly ignoring the fact that, without society, there is no compromise, no tolerance, no compassion and no trust.
But even before them, one Richard Nixon made it his political mission to reverse the circumstances that were reducing inequality to the extent that, through capitalism, the USA might achieve an equal society. His policies reversed that convergence and ensured that the Haves will always have more than the Have Nots.

Nixon, btw, was from the "greatest generation" and not a boomer.

One of the few lessons my parents taught me that I actually agreed with was always to vote for the person that will put pounds in your pocket. A vote is always a selfish act, and democratic government is the collective selfishness of the people. The Boomers, and a decent chunk of Gen X, are decidedly selfish people.

"I've earned it, I'll spend it myself, **** the rest of you."

That being said, there is a significant portion of our society that feels 'left out', betrayed, and disaffected. I know, because I'm one of them.
Would you be willing to elaborate on this point a little?

So, the big question: can we fix it?

Sure. It just takes the desire to do so.

Will we?

Ah, that's the $64 question, isn't it? I continue to have an abiding faith in the basic good sense of the American people, but for sure we are in for a rocky few years (probably a decade?).
Overseas, we've somewhat lost that faith. I do see this as the beginning of the end of American hegemony... and more's the pity, for as much as I'd never want to live there, I'm grateful for the gravity it has provided for the last 80 years.

One thing is certain, the United State of America will never be what it once was.
I fear Trump has not only pulled up the roots of American society, but also poisoned the ground from whence it came.

Hopefully, it will be something even better. Not sure if I will live to see that, though. For sure, it isn't on the correct path at the moment, but maybe we are starting to see the change? Tuesday will see. I have no great love for the Democrat party, but the Republicans have lost their damned minds. For people who claim to be Christians, I see very little I believe Christ would want associated with His name, and a great deal that I believe He would be flat out horrified by.
Performative Christianity is the worst....

It's also really a shame that there are no credible third or fourth parties in the US. Nothing keeps a party on track like a credible challenger for the same political space.
 
Nixon, btw, was from the "greatest generation" and not a boomer.
Likewise with Reagan and George Bush the Elder. But in all three cases, they were elevated to power in large part by the Baby Boomers. Bush the Elder received a bit of help from GenX, to be sure, but again, the size of Genx compared to the rest of the population (and particularly the Boomers) makes us a minor political force.

One of the few lessons my parents taught me that I actually agreed with was always to vote for the person that will put pounds in your pocket. A vote is always a selfish act, and democratic government is the collective selfishness of the people. The Boomers, and a decent chunk of Gen X, are decidedly selfish people.

"I've earned it, I'll spend it myself, **** the rest of you."
Also expressed as "F**k you, I got mine". I'm not pretending that GenX are virtuous to a fault; we are just as guilty as anyone else. It's just that OUR ability to contribute to the problem is relatively small given our generational size, and a significant portion of GenX seems to be more on the "F**k off and leave me alone" train than actively trying to change society (at least in my experience).

Would you be willing to elaborate on this point a little?
Are you asking specifically about me, or about what I see around me?

For myself, where to start? The Republicans have been promising a health-care program since the 90s, when the Clintons first started pushing hard for it. Then Obama finally managed to push through the abomination that is the ACA. It was arguably terrible, but it was at least SOMETHING, and the Republicans immediately started campaigning to repeal it and replace it with something better "if only you'll put us back in power".

Or what about the fact that there's not a Republican congresscritter ALIVE who doesn't think corporations are absolutely awesome, despite DAILY demonstrations of how they are ripping the beating economic heart out of our country?

Or what about the fact that the Republicans even ELECTED Trump, much less TWICE?!

Or what about continual tax cuts that never produce the promised prosperity, but only cause more suffering for all but the wealthiest?

The Democrats are no saints to be sure, and they have no more desire to lose their power than do the Republicans, but they at least PRETEND to care .

Overseas, we've somewhat lost that faith. I do see this as the beginning of the end of American hegemony... and more's the pity, for as much as I'd never want to live there, I'm grateful for the gravity it has provided for the last 80 years.
From your perspective overseas, I can completely understand why you would have lost faith. Tumultuous times do that. As I said, I believe that we will rise again from the ashes, stronger than we were before. I believe part of that strength will come from us working with the other developed economies of the world as partners and equals, rather than the hegemonic but occasionally benevolent empire that we have been. Europe in particular has been under our thumb for too long, IMO.
 
From your perspective overseas, I can completely understand why you would have lost faith. Tumultuous times do that. As I said, I believe that we will rise again from the ashes, stronger than we were before. I believe part of that strength will come from us working with the other developed economies of the world as partners and equals, rather than the hegemonic but occasionally benevolent empire that we have been.
Before that happens, I rather hope there'll be a period of soul searching to determine the sort of society the USA wants to become in the 21st Century. This wouldn't be the first such reinvention, nor will it be evenly felt.

The struggle in the 18th Century was whether the USA would exist at all. In the 19th Century, it was north vs. south (or freedom vs. slavery, if you will), as well as a determination of which of the immigrant cultures would dominate - settled for that century as white Anglo-Saxon culture retaining primacy. The 20th Century was for "the American Dream" - capitalism vs. communism, segregated vs. emancipated, traditional vs. progressive, partially settled in favour of emancipated capitalism, but with the identity question still being argued today. I take your point that this is the last of the big Boomer battles, but it appears to have spread to the young as well.

"Lorien: "Who are you?" It's a dangerous question, isn't it? There's never a good answer to it. I suppose that's the point."

Europe in particular has been under our thumb for too long, IMO.
We put ourselves there.

The Rules-based International Order has been good for the world generally. We've prospered under it and genuinely would like for it to continue. American perfidy (1) is baked into that equation and we've historically not questioned the inequality of the deal provided that the use of power remains hidden beneath the surface. It doesn't actually matter to us whether the USA wishes to describe itself as "the greatest country on Earth," have the biggest military or dominate the world economy, so long as our own lives, wealth and freedom is untouched.

Are you asking specifically about me, or about what I see around me?

For myself, where to start? The Republicans have been promising a health-care program since the 90s, when the Clintons first started pushing hard for it. Then Obama finally managed to push through the abomination that is the ACA. It was arguably terrible, but it was at least SOMETHING, and the Republicans immediately started campaigning to repeal it and replace it with something better "if only you'll put us back in power".
So how do you feel about socialism?

Pretty much the only way out of the medicare/medicaid/ACA bind is to unravel some of McCarthy's legacy and accept that certain costs have to be socialised, and certain industries have to be regulated in such a way that they serve the people rather than their shareholders. The German model is probably the primary example of how well this can be performed with both private and state involvement. However, as Germany is also presently demonstrating, countries looking to adopt its model might wish to wait for a few more Boomers to die off first, as the sheer number of them coupled with the fact they didn't breed enough, creates a bit of a funding crunch.

Or what about the fact that there's not a Republican congresscritter ALIVE who doesn't think corporations are absolutely awesome, despite DAILY demonstrations of how they are ripping the beating economic heart out of our country?
Or what about continual tax cuts that never produce the promised prosperity, but only cause more suffering for all but the wealthiest?
Limited company structures are a fantastic invention. But.. so is regulation. The issue at hand is not the presence of corporations per se, but the risk of corruption at the heart of the US political financing and lobbying system that allows corporations (and PACs) to create obligations on politicians to act in a certain way, regardless of whether it's overtly stated or not.

Those obligations will be to avoid a regulation, defer or reduce a tax, open a loophole, support a foreign interest ahead of US interests, and so forth. The tax cuts were delivered, and they did deliver prosperity, just not for the likes of you and me.

Remove the pork barrel, and the politics will get leaner again.
Or what about the fact that the Republicans even ELECTED Trump, much less TWICE?!
Yeah... but so did the population.

In the last election, what "cut through," at least from what I saw over here, was not Trump's promises of this and that, which were obvious bullshit, but a Democratic policy that read as essentially an attack on the majority population in favour of doctrines that were hostile to them.

I would be prepared to bet that a large part of the 2024 Trump vote was a message to discipline the Democrats that, liberalism to a point is fine, but actively pushing the interests of ever smaller minority groups at the expense of majority is not a vote winning strategy.

(As I wasn't there, apologies if, in fact, it wasn't the identity politics question that shot down the Kamala bid.)

The Democrats are no saints to be sure, and they have no more desire to lose their power than do the Republicans, but they at least PRETEND to care .
Pity that Biden had declined so badly by the time he picked up the presidency. Having control of both houses and the executive could have ushered in some structural reforms needed - controls on funding, lobbying, anti-gerrymandering, return of some presidential powers to the house... and especially important would be the abolition of executive orders to fix the obvious path to authoritarianism.

Maybe next time...


(1) Though the Lend-Lease and Reverse Lend-Lease Agreements used to demand the dismantlement of the British Empire, the McMahon Act that locked Britain out of nuclear research that it had donated to the USA enabling the Manhattan Project to be first to the bomb, financial coercion (Suez), threats to, and invasion of our sovereign territory (Grenada), failure to support our overseas interests (Falklands), and invocation of Article 5 of the NATO treaty with it now evident that such a call by others would not be reciprocated, are a remarkably high price to pay for intelligence sharing, a slight discount on US nukes, and the occasional political warm fuzzy feeling.
 
So how do you feel about socialism?

Pretty much the only way out of the medicare/medicaid/ACA bind is to unravel some of McCarthy's legacy and accept that certain costs have to be socialised, and certain industries have to be regulated in such a way that they serve the people rather than their shareholders. The German model is probably the primary example of how well this can be performed with both private and state involvement. However, as Germany is also presently demonstrating, countries looking to adopt its model might wish to wait for a few more Boomers to die off first, as the sheer number of them coupled with the fact they didn't breed enough, creates a bit of a funding crunch.
As a product of my times and upbringing, I have a visceral reaction to the concept of socialism that is, at best, antipathetic. That being said, we have 'stealth' socialism in the form of Insurance of various kinds. We couch it as 'protecting ourselves' (homeowner's insurance, car insurance, health insurance, etc.), or 'planning for the future' (life insurance), but the reality is that they ALL depend on 'spreading the risk' which is just a circumspect way of saying 'sharing the burden', and that's what socialism is. Therefore, my gut says 'no', but my brain says, "Ok, but let's think this through".

Limited company structures are a fantastic invention. But.. so is regulation. The issue at hand is not the presence of corporations per se, but the risk of corruption at the heart of the US political financing and lobbying system that allows corporations (and PACs) to create obligations on politicians to act in a certain way, regardless of whether it's overtly stated or not.
Which is precisely the problem; we want to have our cake and eat it too.

So here's the problem, as I see it:
An economy exists as a contract between the private and public sectors.
In the private sector of a capitalist economy, the purpose of a business (ANY business) is to maximize the profits it generates for its shareholders (whether that's the mom-n-pop store on the corner, or the giant corporation), within whatever constraints the society in the form of the public sector deems necessary to implement. In other words, business is greedy.
The public sector implements constraints in order to ensure the health of the society overall, by providing the means for individuals to take care of themselves with a minimum of interference from outside forces. It tolerates the existence of business as part of that means, but only so long as the existence of the business continues to serve the larger overarching goal.

These two forces MUST exist in tension with each other in order for the whole thing to work. When that tension ceases to be reasonably balanced, things get out of hand and we either slide into a totally managed economy (which only results in a few at the top becoming wealthy at the expense of everyone else) or we go the other way into a complete free-for-all (which only results in a few at the top becoming wealthy at the expense of everyone else).

People in general are selfish. This is an evolved mechanism and is thus by design: my survival has to come first. Politicians then, are naturally motivated by the same selfish interests as everyone else, only moreso, as we have chosen to yield some degree of power to them, by virtue of the fact that we allow them to act as leaders. Therefore, our goal is to build a system that incentivises the politicians to act in their own best interest, and make that interest coincide with our best interest.

After all, even the most well-intentioned person is still human, and subject to human foibles and frailties.

In the last election, what "cut through," at least from what I saw over here, was not Trump's promises of this and that, which were obvious bullshit, but a Democratic policy that read as essentially an attack on the majority population in favour of doctrines that were hostile to them.

I would be prepared to bet that a large part of the 2024 Trump vote was a message to discipline the Democrats that, liberalism to a point is fine, but actively pushing the interests of ever smaller minority groups at the expense of majority is not a vote winning strategy.

There were a couple of things, actually. Your read of the Democratic party is, I think, essentially correct. My big fear at the moment is that the Democrats are going to completely misread the room AGAIN. They currently have nothing like a cohesive strategy (which, fault the Republicans all you want, but they at least HAD A PLAN), and while I agree that Trump and others have betrayed the country and need to be impeached, the Democrats have won (to the extent they HAVE won) based on the perception that they are going to make the lives of the average American better. They have only a limited window of opportunity in which to do that; if they fail to deliver once again, things will not go well. To that end, while I think ultimately impeachment is necessary, if that is the first thing they do once taking power, too many people are going to see that as 'taking revenge' rather than addressing Americans' needs. I'd argue that impeaching IS addressing our needs, but when people are feeling pain now, they want solutions NOW, not something that will makes things better in a couple of years.

The problem for the Republican party is the same, but in a different way, IMO. People are fed up with being lied to, with big corporations closing facilities, cutting jobs, and not increasing wages (or only begrudgingly doing so), while raking in record profits. The Republicans have failed to reign in ANY of this, and have in fact implemented policies that have actively MADE THINGS WORSE (see the current-tariff-of-the-day), all while telling people that they are working for us. At least here in Missouri, we have a saying for this: "Don't piss on my back and tell me it's raining". I'm sure there are variations of this in other countries that carry the same meaning; in Columbia they used to say "Me orina encima y me dice que llueve". In Afghanistan, I heard something similar which I believe was along the lines of "Z mā pa stargo ke khāware ma shinda!", although my understanding is the English idiom carries a bit more heat.

I cry inside every day for my country and my people. We are capable of so much more than this. We HAVE BEEN capable of so much more than this.

And yet, here we are. As the great sage once said "This too shall pass".
 
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