Have you ever noticed something in its absence?
- Thread starter Daniel~
- Start date
As Sensitivity has been shown as to "the Grouping of men" I thought I might share a few thoughts, road markers as it were along the way.
Confucius said that if we wish to know what any one is like,
We need only look upon who he bestows his care.
In the same way that the body has important and unimportant parts.
(WE mustn't lose our eyes to save a finger!)
How shall we value one another. The Democratic response is that
"All men are created equal." By which of course we mean "Equal under the ;Law."
For most men we need hardly give it a thought. Because we don't need to.
Have any of us failed to meet our betters? Have we not all at some point in some way thought our selves great only to be stunned senseless when true greatness showed up?
Example! Every Guitar player I knew was CRUSHED when Jimmy Hendricks broke at the Filmore. I can remember them huddling like little ducklings in a rain storm, working out how the hell he was doing it.
When they did all of them were playing at another level. At lest they started getting paid! This is how humanity has valued itself for thousands of years.
There are those who are Very Good! and there are those who are unique.
The sages take care of superior men that they might serve all men thought them.
Yet even among the sages we can perceive differences in their their gifts.
We who do not posses their gifts can none the less evaluate them. We Must!!
For everyman is stuck with choice. We can be dumb as posts, but we still must decide. we can be as shape as an angels glance, and still decide wrong!
(None of us is going to leave this world perfect)
Do we follow the wisdom of the past or blaze a new trail? We still must decide.
We still must evaluate
But with .Tradition or Revolution we must go with the time. Each comes in it's own time.
So what's important is that we see our fellows rightly. And that we understand the "Times."
That We understand that we can enjoy conversation,Seek the truths of life, But when a Gandhi shows up it's time to shut up and listen because revolution is at hand.
Before Gandhi the world was one thing...now it is another. Before revolution almost always had to be violent and bloody to effect the need changes.
After Gandhi "anonymous" fills the streets bu tin almost all cases go home to dinner to strengthen themselves for the new day.
Now I'd like to say a few words to those who call themselves Christian,
yet vote for a man who lies out of force of habit, boasts of molesting your mothers your sisters and any "Unprotected females he comes across.
He has never been shown to actually give as much as two cents to the poor.
He has strongly suggested that minorities of any kind should be taken advantage of.
Ran a fraudulent University and is appointing Billionaires because you all have just so much in common with your oppressors.
Now tell me true. Is this an exemplifier of Christ? after 2000 years of struggle to understand your God
This is the dark alley in which you've chosen to mug the Christ?
"For what ever you do to the lest of these
you do unto me. "
What? You thought that was just a side dish? Dudes it's the main course!
We are always weighing and so always being weighed.
Jesus wept!
Back to grouping men. Two kinds.
Men naturally group themselves. This is usually on the basis of attractions. If there are ten wrestlers in a small town they WILL find each other and come together to practice and compete.
If there only 20 kids in your high school the three who can sing will always try to harmonize .
Farmers pool their labor and towns people maintain access and guard against fire..
We come together in need. Nobody has to round us up and make sure we are participating
The second is far more sinister in practice and intention..
This is the "us" and "Them" of those who seek to divide
us by any means necessary. To Rule Over Us.
For when we come together We always bring about revolution.
revolution unites those who have been kept apart. we are brought together in common cause. To do away with that which has become antiquated and no longer serves it's purpose
(Bear in mind this line of thought is well over 2000 years old!)
To do away with that which has become antiquated or corrupt. and to usher in the NEW!
This IS the natural course of human development. This the way Rome, This the way of the Greeks, this the way of Constantinople, this the inevitable course of change and alteration that has "refreshed" human societies when they grow to encumbered by the patristic and really quite useless and unnecessary rich.
I try avoid anything that divides me from my fellows. It is my fellows who remove themselves from me.
And so it has ever been.":O}
Hope I didn't bore you to much...just working a few things out for myself....and those like me.LOL
Confucius said that if we wish to know what any one is like,
We need only look upon who he bestows his care.
In the same way that the body has important and unimportant parts.
(WE mustn't lose our eyes to save a finger!)
How shall we value one another. The Democratic response is that
"All men are created equal." By which of course we mean "Equal under the ;Law."
For most men we need hardly give it a thought. Because we don't need to.
Have any of us failed to meet our betters? Have we not all at some point in some way thought our selves great only to be stunned senseless when true greatness showed up?
Example! Every Guitar player I knew was CRUSHED when Jimmy Hendricks broke at the Filmore. I can remember them huddling like little ducklings in a rain storm, working out how the hell he was doing it.
When they did all of them were playing at another level. At lest they started getting paid! This is how humanity has valued itself for thousands of years.
There are those who are Very Good! and there are those who are unique.
The sages take care of superior men that they might serve all men thought them.
Yet even among the sages we can perceive differences in their their gifts.
We who do not posses their gifts can none the less evaluate them. We Must!!
For everyman is stuck with choice. We can be dumb as posts, but we still must decide. we can be as shape as an angels glance, and still decide wrong!
(None of us is going to leave this world perfect)
Do we follow the wisdom of the past or blaze a new trail? We still must decide.
We still must evaluate
But with .Tradition or Revolution we must go with the time. Each comes in it's own time.
So what's important is that we see our fellows rightly. And that we understand the "Times."
That We understand that we can enjoy conversation,Seek the truths of life, But when a Gandhi shows up it's time to shut up and listen because revolution is at hand.
Before Gandhi the world was one thing...now it is another. Before revolution almost always had to be violent and bloody to effect the need changes.
After Gandhi "anonymous" fills the streets bu tin almost all cases go home to dinner to strengthen themselves for the new day.
Now I'd like to say a few words to those who call themselves Christian,
yet vote for a man who lies out of force of habit, boasts of molesting your mothers your sisters and any "Unprotected females he comes across.
He has never been shown to actually give as much as two cents to the poor.
He has strongly suggested that minorities of any kind should be taken advantage of.
Ran a fraudulent University and is appointing Billionaires because you all have just so much in common with your oppressors.
Now tell me true. Is this an exemplifier of Christ? after 2000 years of struggle to understand your God
This is the dark alley in which you've chosen to mug the Christ?
"For what ever you do to the lest of these
you do unto me. "
What? You thought that was just a side dish? Dudes it's the main course!
We are always weighing and so always being weighed.
Jesus wept!
Back to grouping men. Two kinds.
Men naturally group themselves. This is usually on the basis of attractions. If there are ten wrestlers in a small town they WILL find each other and come together to practice and compete.
If there only 20 kids in your high school the three who can sing will always try to harmonize .
Farmers pool their labor and towns people maintain access and guard against fire..
We come together in need. Nobody has to round us up and make sure we are participating
The second is far more sinister in practice and intention..
This is the "us" and "Them" of those who seek to divide
us by any means necessary. To Rule Over Us.
For when we come together We always bring about revolution.
revolution unites those who have been kept apart. we are brought together in common cause. To do away with that which has become antiquated and no longer serves it's purpose
(Bear in mind this line of thought is well over 2000 years old!)
To do away with that which has become antiquated or corrupt. and to usher in the NEW!
This IS the natural course of human development. This the way Rome, This the way of the Greeks, this the way of Constantinople, this the inevitable course of change and alteration that has "refreshed" human societies when they grow to encumbered by the patristic and really quite useless and unnecessary rich.
I try avoid anything that divides me from my fellows. It is my fellows who remove themselves from me.
And so it has ever been.":O}
Hope I didn't bore you to much...just working a few things out for myself....and those like me.LOL
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Kaitain
Active Member
Aw screw it!
I've written about half a dozen drafts that disappeared up their own rectums somewhere along the lines, then just finished a draft I was happy with when my browser locks up and dies, but the draft was not saved.
So the TLDR version of a much more eloquent, if browser-killing post, is that while I might be lucky enough to live in a part of the UK where multiculturalism has worked, and where people of different backgrounds and faiths manage to rub along without violence or ghettoisation, you don't have to go many miles in any direction before you come to a town where it's failed, and they're fractured along ethnic, racial or religious lines.
While I'm saddened by Brexit, and by Lord Dampnut's election, and by normally sensible people like Mark Rutte doing a Trump in public, and by the continued existence of Front Nationale as a political force, I'm not surprised. We have allowed division and disunity to enter our society, and we have disempowered everybody... absolutely everybody... from talking about it without shrill voices from the back of the room pointing and screaming, "Arrgghhh, RACISTS!"
Simply vilifying Muslims isn't the right answer. (And Lord Dampnut's travel ban is first degree stupidity). Neither is being over-sensitive and banning necessary discussion because it "might" be racist.
Most, in my experience, don't actually care that we're not Muslim/Christian/Hindu/etc and aren't in the conversion business, so long as we don't care that they're not Pastafarians and try to push our views onto them. Same as any other human I've ever met. But we do need the ability to talk about the Anjem Choudarys of this world, who want to ruin it for everyone. We also do need to be able to talk to the socially-conservative parts of our own societies to understand what they need to be comfortable with the new normal - and make no mistake, increased mobility of peoples is the new normal - without the incredible arrogance we've displayed over the last 20 years. "Suck it up, Little Englanders" won't cut it any more.
The world was moving towards the borderless utopia I dreamed of as a child before Brexit woke me up, so I didn't pay attention to the Little Englanders. Now it's not.
So guys, how are we going to fix this?
I've written about half a dozen drafts that disappeared up their own rectums somewhere along the lines, then just finished a draft I was happy with when my browser locks up and dies, but the draft was not saved.
So the TLDR version of a much more eloquent, if browser-killing post, is that while I might be lucky enough to live in a part of the UK where multiculturalism has worked, and where people of different backgrounds and faiths manage to rub along without violence or ghettoisation, you don't have to go many miles in any direction before you come to a town where it's failed, and they're fractured along ethnic, racial or religious lines.
While I'm saddened by Brexit, and by Lord Dampnut's election, and by normally sensible people like Mark Rutte doing a Trump in public, and by the continued existence of Front Nationale as a political force, I'm not surprised. We have allowed division and disunity to enter our society, and we have disempowered everybody... absolutely everybody... from talking about it without shrill voices from the back of the room pointing and screaming, "Arrgghhh, RACISTS!"
Simply vilifying Muslims isn't the right answer. (And Lord Dampnut's travel ban is first degree stupidity). Neither is being over-sensitive and banning necessary discussion because it "might" be racist.
Most, in my experience, don't actually care that we're not Muslim/Christian/Hindu/etc and aren't in the conversion business, so long as we don't care that they're not Pastafarians and try to push our views onto them. Same as any other human I've ever met. But we do need the ability to talk about the Anjem Choudarys of this world, who want to ruin it for everyone. We also do need to be able to talk to the socially-conservative parts of our own societies to understand what they need to be comfortable with the new normal - and make no mistake, increased mobility of peoples is the new normal - without the incredible arrogance we've displayed over the last 20 years. "Suck it up, Little Englanders" won't cut it any more.
The world was moving towards the borderless utopia I dreamed of as a child before Brexit woke me up, so I didn't pay attention to the Little Englanders. Now it's not.
So guys, how are we going to fix this?
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I don't know any better way than, as Daniel said "Help the one in front of you". Lead by example. It's lonely at the front, and sometimes it really sux when you're the voice of reason in a sea of insanity. But just as the insanity started from a few small places and spread, so will the sanity.
As human beings, we really stink at finding 'the middle way'. We seem to move between extremes.
As human beings, we really stink at finding 'the middle way'. We seem to move between extremes.
Well....Here's what my books says. roughly...":O}
True equality is not possible among men. Fortunately it is not necessary either.
Here's what is necessary .
That inner worth determines outer rank and that outer rank is determine by inner worth.
In any field,
let's take Music. Ya got say seven guys maybe three girls. A new group.
What happens first?
They test each others abilities. They determine for themselves who understands the most music most clearly.
Then they make a different kind of decision...Who stands closest to the middle?. Who can unite the others
in such a way that their talents best further the music they as a group wish to create?
The guy or gal who can bring everyone together and get them to play the same tune at the same time, becomes their leader because he or she has the talent and sees most clearly where they as a group want to go.
Long long years before we had a Gandhi, we needed a Gandhi G. That need was first recognize by the best informed and the most intelligent. But also by those closest to and most impacted by the our devisions.
Gandhi faced almost in surmountable difficulties with the entrenched points of view.
The people of India were diverse and committed to their hatred of each other. Furious in the teachings that separated them. There truly seemed no way out for anyone.!
But Gandhi placed himself in the great middle! He ignored doctrine! He asked the question, what then must we do?
I would like to remind us of a true insistent. After one or the horrific riots in which Hindu and Muslim went at each other hacking away with farm implements, knifes and clubs Women and children were not spared by either side.
Gandhi began a fast and swore not to end it until every last city at war with itself put aside it's violence. It took well over a month. But by Gandhi's willingness to suffer personally for his principles he made so strong a moral impression that in the end he simply could not be ignored.
As the violence faded men who had committed the most horrible deeds began to come to their senses.
saw the blood debts they had taken on. Debts that could never be replayed...or so it seemed.
On man confessed to Gandhi that he had taken an infant and bashed out it's brains against a wall.
He was a Hindu near suicide with guilt.
The great man told him to find a Muslim child and raise that orphan as his own and completely as a Muslim.
Tens of thousands of orphans found homes in this way. Gandhi found a way out for them.
Was Gandhi successful? Some might say no. I would only say not yet. But Gandhi is hardly done with us is he Martian?
Men of good will all over this world now have a template for change and transformation.
We persist and resist.
We renounce violence and then we take it to the man! We tax the rich out of existence. We give the masses the information they need to understand who and what is being apposed.
By our example we teach them HOW to oppose, without destroying the thing we wish to create.
Gandhi's message is a new message. Gandhi's message brings about revolution. It establishes a new way to bring about change in the existing social order. It speaks to Hindu, Muslim and Christian and calls upon them to live rather than perch the highest tenets of their faiths.
Before Gandhi Our best bet was to
"Resist ye not evil but flee from it."
(J.C and his crew.}
For most times and places this remains solid advice! But change and transformation are at work here, now, in our own lives!! Revolution is coming! In times of Revolution evil must be confronted!
Corruption must be throughly discredited and abolished or it will returned UN-noticed and spread unchecked once more and all our efforts will be for naught.
It gives common ground to the believer and non-believer. Where many religions flourish, so to do they who have no stated religion beyond good will.
In my View the people are ready, but we must wait. Offer prayers for the General well being and
pray that the spirit of Gandhi and Martin in whatever form, will return to us and Exemplify the new way ahead.
With Revolution we must be able to a wait the Right "Time"
With Revolution we must not mis the right time.
With Resolution we must go with the times.
AS we turn away from violent conflict we come face to face with the one who needs us most right now.
This will be our point of departure. Help the one placed in your path.
Talk to the one who needs to hear your words.
But do not rely upon words. Make of yourselves living examples. Become men for all this world to see.
The task is indeed difficult, made so by all that is struggling to attain it's true form.
Attain your true forums and you may lead this world without falling into error.
In dealing with tyrants the I Ching offers this advice when things, despite our best efforts turn to war.
"Kill the leaders and spare the followers."
Seems self evident to me. Make no mistake, if you read this, and understand the necessity to bring about change as you have seen the needs of the people, then this is yours to do!
Make yourselves firm in determination. For only a man who is firmly resolved is equipped to meet his fate
True equality is not possible among men. Fortunately it is not necessary either.
Here's what is necessary .
That inner worth determines outer rank and that outer rank is determine by inner worth.
In any field,
let's take Music. Ya got say seven guys maybe three girls. A new group.
What happens first?
They test each others abilities. They determine for themselves who understands the most music most clearly.
Then they make a different kind of decision...Who stands closest to the middle?. Who can unite the others
in such a way that their talents best further the music they as a group wish to create?
The guy or gal who can bring everyone together and get them to play the same tune at the same time, becomes their leader because he or she has the talent and sees most clearly where they as a group want to go.
Long long years before we had a Gandhi, we needed a Gandhi G. That need was first recognize by the best informed and the most intelligent. But also by those closest to and most impacted by the our devisions.
Gandhi faced almost in surmountable difficulties with the entrenched points of view.
The people of India were diverse and committed to their hatred of each other. Furious in the teachings that separated them. There truly seemed no way out for anyone.!
But Gandhi placed himself in the great middle! He ignored doctrine! He asked the question, what then must we do?
I would like to remind us of a true insistent. After one or the horrific riots in which Hindu and Muslim went at each other hacking away with farm implements, knifes and clubs Women and children were not spared by either side.
Gandhi began a fast and swore not to end it until every last city at war with itself put aside it's violence. It took well over a month. But by Gandhi's willingness to suffer personally for his principles he made so strong a moral impression that in the end he simply could not be ignored.
As the violence faded men who had committed the most horrible deeds began to come to their senses.
saw the blood debts they had taken on. Debts that could never be replayed...or so it seemed.
On man confessed to Gandhi that he had taken an infant and bashed out it's brains against a wall.
He was a Hindu near suicide with guilt.
The great man told him to find a Muslim child and raise that orphan as his own and completely as a Muslim.
Tens of thousands of orphans found homes in this way. Gandhi found a way out for them.
Was Gandhi successful? Some might say no. I would only say not yet. But Gandhi is hardly done with us is he Martian?
Men of good will all over this world now have a template for change and transformation.
We persist and resist.
We renounce violence and then we take it to the man! We tax the rich out of existence. We give the masses the information they need to understand who and what is being apposed.
By our example we teach them HOW to oppose, without destroying the thing we wish to create.
Gandhi's message is a new message. Gandhi's message brings about revolution. It establishes a new way to bring about change in the existing social order. It speaks to Hindu, Muslim and Christian and calls upon them to live rather than perch the highest tenets of their faiths.
Before Gandhi Our best bet was to
"Resist ye not evil but flee from it."
(J.C and his crew.}
For most times and places this remains solid advice! But change and transformation are at work here, now, in our own lives!! Revolution is coming! In times of Revolution evil must be confronted!
Corruption must be throughly discredited and abolished or it will returned UN-noticed and spread unchecked once more and all our efforts will be for naught.
It gives common ground to the believer and non-believer. Where many religions flourish, so to do they who have no stated religion beyond good will.
In my View the people are ready, but we must wait. Offer prayers for the General well being and
pray that the spirit of Gandhi and Martin in whatever form, will return to us and Exemplify the new way ahead.
With Revolution we must be able to a wait the Right "Time"
With Revolution we must not mis the right time.
With Resolution we must go with the times.
AS we turn away from violent conflict we come face to face with the one who needs us most right now.
This will be our point of departure. Help the one placed in your path.
Talk to the one who needs to hear your words.
But do not rely upon words. Make of yourselves living examples. Become men for all this world to see.
The task is indeed difficult, made so by all that is struggling to attain it's true form.
Attain your true forums and you may lead this world without falling into error.
In dealing with tyrants the I Ching offers this advice when things, despite our best efforts turn to war.
"Kill the leaders and spare the followers."
Seems self evident to me. Make no mistake, if you read this, and understand the necessity to bring about change as you have seen the needs of the people, then this is yours to do!
Make yourselves firm in determination. For only a man who is firmly resolved is equipped to meet his fate
Hence:
"The Wheel grinds slowly, but exceedingly fine."
What ever we leave sticking out to far is cut back.
"Everything that goes to extremes meets with misfortune."
Why is that?"
Because our support always comes from the middle. Where Most people and most things are.. Where if we fall help is close by.
On Mt. Everest Who can we turn to for help when things go wrong...and things always go wrong.
So I guess I'm saying your right Chris! We do suck at this. That's why we get the wheel and pruning shears.
Nature isn't going to wait around for us to get a clue when we've gone to far.
Nature as ridiculous as it seems, expects us to self correct, when we don't, sooner or later we will put forth a hand and draw back a stump.
And the birds will go on singing while you bleed
for their songs celebrates the Great Middle...as now, so does your stump!
Your stump now a marker to outline your limitations.
The limits that have been set for you and without which our lives would only devolve into the boundless.
This body limits all that I can do. This body makes possible all I can do.
This skin separates me from all that is. This skin allows me to touch all that is.
Once we know the limits that define us. We gain knowledge as to how we may go about perfecting ourselves.
Example:
We are human beings. Let's not waste time trying to become Rabbits!! Becoming a Rabbit is outside the limits set for us. All work upon ourselves must take place within our limitations or it will not be nourished, will not continue and evolve.
Nature WILL support us! But to receive that support we must be standing in the Right way and in the right place. Or we simply miss our connection and wither, perhaps even die.
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OK.
What happens when Trump ,pence and cabinet are impeached for treason.
Will we except the next corrupt policy marker in line of succession or demand a re set?
A New national constitutional convention?
A redistribution of wealth?
What would you demand be changed before all else?
What happens when Trump ,pence and cabinet are impeached for treason.
Will we except the next corrupt policy marker in line of succession or demand a re set?
A New national constitutional convention?
A redistribution of wealth?
What would you demand be changed before all else?
Kaitain
Active Member
Ah, sadly the nature of this crash was that javascript execution had stopped some time before, without me noticing. So no saved drafts at all...
Need to find a tin of air and give this poor old laptop a cleaning. It's a bit warm.
I see wealth redistribution is a recurring theme in your posts and while it would sound like a brilliant solution, in practice there are only very limited ways in which it can work. I read, some time ago, a very long and very detailed thought experiment on what would happen a government confiscated a nation's entire wealth and rebooted the economy, with everybody starting with an identical sum of money.
Brutally paraphrasing the essay, essentially the "money would soon find its way home," because some people understand the rules of money, while for others it slips through their fingers like water through a sieve.
So for wealth redistribution to work, it has to be continuously redistributed, constantly refilling the bottom - this is the nature of the Nordic model economy - but it cannot ever be completely equal otherwise you can never establish the cash cycle that gets people doing the things that need to be done to keep everyone warm, fed and watered. It would also have to be pretty much a worldwide phenomenon, as with enough wealth, borders are merely an inconvenience.
Maybe wait 'til the robots take over...
What I really want to see on my ballot paper, when I go into the polling booth and see listed on the page a selection of sociopaths, narcissists, racists and single issue campaigners, is an entry at the bottom of the form marked, "none of the above." That's what I'd do first.
Then I'll continue making the robots.
Some countries offer "none of the above" on their national ballots. Don't know how well this works. I do know that our country MUST have all paper ballots--counted in public.
The oligarchs at the top never give up power gracefully. Their over sized egos tell them that they worked for and deserve nearly all the money available. So a FAIR redistribution of wealth might start with a job for everyone who wants one and is fit to work. There's plenty of work that needs to be done.
The oligarchs at the top never give up power gracefully. Their over sized egos tell them that they worked for and deserve nearly all the money available. So a FAIR redistribution of wealth might start with a job for everyone who wants one and is fit to work. There's plenty of work that needs to be done.
Kaitain
Active Member
So what happens to the people who don't want to work, or through poor life choices are able bodied but stupid? Or have decided that the job you offer isn't the one they want?
At what point do we say that the idle poor are just as parasitical on society as the megalomaniac rich?
There are things we could do to bring down fat-cat pay. We could postulate a ceiling level of income, and tax any income above that at 100%. We could follow the US example, and make all Britons liable for UK tax, wherever they reside, so preventing people from simply hiding in Monaco. We could legislate to force a limit on wage inequality between the highest and lowest.
But those are bad solutions. The biggest thieves of the lot are central government, and making them responsible for controlling the rich is the very definition of putting the fox in charge of the hen house. In the first instance, anyone earning over the threshold will be tempted to leave the country. In the second, anyone earning over the threshold will also be keen to relinquish their nationality. The third is the least bad, but may have the result that the company reincorporates wherever such a rule is not enforced, or may fail to tempt executives that are actually good, but expensive, to these shores.
If it is to change, then we as shareholders are going to have to elect directors with the bravery and power to set a downward expectation on executive pay, and do so consistently, worldwide. I'll do that right after I've fed my unicorn.
To paraphrase a little of your post "Making the central government responsible for controlling the rich." What the US has now is the rich are controlling the central government. And the billionaires appointed by Trump to his cabinet make this even more apparent.
Those in power will do less than nothing to redress the grievances of the little people. The oligarchy stopped listening or caring long ago.
So, is there any practical course for the man in the street to start changing this hideous state of affairs? All that comes to mind is massive peaceful public disobedience. This requires conviction and courage that aren't easy to come by.
Those in power will do less than nothing to redress the grievances of the little people. The oligarchy stopped listening or caring long ago.
So, is there any practical course for the man in the street to start changing this hideous state of affairs? All that comes to mind is massive peaceful public disobedience. This requires conviction and courage that aren't easy to come by.
My guess would be that someone rich hired someone smart to make something really stupid look good...
Ok let's say we need to warehouse wealth rather than invest in all those poor folks who are becoming parasitic
because they have a roof over their heads and three meals a day and snacks...I want snacks to!
The 14 holes sitting in trumps cabinet hold more wealth than the lower 40% of Americans.
Some how I just don't mind the 40% messing about bit with the money we taxed off trumps cabinet.
Basically you whole argument is that somehow we are benefited by the rich having that wealth in some way we are not when we merely allow what use to be poor people to keep the money they earn and enter the middle class.
I'm sure you will recall my advocacy of allowing inner worth to determine outer rank. I might well add that outer rank should receive pay commensurate with rank.
But as with all things there must be limitations put in place that prevent any one element or aspect from coming to dominate with it presence rather than it's contribution.
"The poor are always with us"
J.C.
Blame falls to us when the poor are to poor, when they suffer want in the face of excess.
Blame falls to us when the Rich get what they want because they are rich, rather than right.
Look out the nearest window to you. The untalented and UN-insightful rich are ki8llling your world as I type.
Theirs are the vested interests which resist all change as the way things are has made them rich.
We can have 14 cabinet members who have Zero knowledge of or interest in doing the jobs they were given for money.
Or
we can take our 40% lower classes and give them educations, homes medical treatment and an array of interesting vocational op[opportunities...
History shows us we cannot do both. In my experience people are only lazy when they don't like any of the options. The lower 40% aren't stupid, they just don't like the deal the assholes at the top are offering...do you?
Ok let's say we need to warehouse wealth rather than invest in all those poor folks who are becoming parasitic
because they have a roof over their heads and three meals a day and snacks...I want snacks to!
The 14 holes sitting in trumps cabinet hold more wealth than the lower 40% of Americans.
Some how I just don't mind the 40% messing about bit with the money we taxed off trumps cabinet.
Basically you whole argument is that somehow we are benefited by the rich having that wealth in some way we are not when we merely allow what use to be poor people to keep the money they earn and enter the middle class.
I'm sure you will recall my advocacy of allowing inner worth to determine outer rank. I might well add that outer rank should receive pay commensurate with rank.
But as with all things there must be limitations put in place that prevent any one element or aspect from coming to dominate with it presence rather than it's contribution.
"The poor are always with us"
J.C.
Blame falls to us when the poor are to poor, when they suffer want in the face of excess.
Blame falls to us when the Rich get what they want because they are rich, rather than right.
Look out the nearest window to you. The untalented and UN-insightful rich are ki8llling your world as I type.
Theirs are the vested interests which resist all change as the way things are has made them rich.
We can have 14 cabinet members who have Zero knowledge of or interest in doing the jobs they were given for money.
Or
we can take our 40% lower classes and give them educations, homes medical treatment and an array of interesting vocational op[opportunities...
History shows us we cannot do both. In my experience people are only lazy when they don't like any of the options. The lower 40% aren't stupid, they just don't like the deal the assholes at the top are offering...do you?
Kaitain
Active Member
Actually no, that was not my argument at all. But I do see how I failed to develop my argument properly.
On "money finding its way home:"
Some years ago, flush with cash from a previous overseas role, I made a fantastically stupid financial decision. Having a bank account stuffed with more money than I'd ever seen before, we believed that the hard times were over, we could relax and start enjoying life a bit more. The old TV became a new TV. The new TV came bundled with a Blu-Ray player, and it would be such a shame not to use it, wouldn't it? The house wasn't really in our kind of area, but hmm, it's not really in good condition after being empty so long, so why don't we move to a rented place while I fix it up? Hmm, wouldn't it be nice to have some new sofas, and oh, hey, new laptop and...
... fast forward a couple of years, and I'm trying to work out by what magic I can both eat and pay all the bills.
And in this regard, I resembled the overwhelming majority* of the population who, when they suddenly come into money, go shopping.
The habits of not buying the latest toys, of living on less than what you earn, and of using the excess to buy the means of production rather than the product itself do not come naturally to all but a few.
The point of that statement was this:
if we took today's society, with today's people, and did nothing but strip "the rich" of their wealth and give it to the poor then, because people are people, and most people are fools when it comes to money, after a decade or so "the rich" would probably have most of their money back. Why? Because they buy the business and not the product.
* One of the UK debt charities produces a report on earning, saving and spending patterns. I'll try to find a link in a later edit as the hotel internet isn't great, but the evidence is there - regardless of age, race or income, very few are willing to live within their means, save and invest.
On the "parasitical poor"...
I realised when I wrote this it was provocative - and didn't disappoint
It is absolutely right that we have a social welfare system to catch people when they fall. None of us ever really know if or when life is going to go wrong for us, for us to be without work or become too ill to work. So having a system in place to catch someone, support them and help get them back into work if they are able is a core part of our society. And I'm incredibly glad we have it, as the ultimate insurance against an uncertain future.
But there is always a certain level of abuse - and in the UK, at least, the degree to which the system was gamed was such that in some estates, the last person to hold down a job was Dave-at-number-32's grandfather. Bearing in mind, this is the UK, where we have free healthcare, free education, and multiple overlapping benefits that as 2010 dawned equated to better than the national median income if applied well.
So my question was an honest one, aimed at a good statement. Cloasters stated, "So a FAIR redistribution of wealth might start with a job for everyone who wants one and is fit to work."
In effect, and with my UK-centred view, "now that the national minimum wage has eliminated the value of a 'reserve labour force' to capitalism as there is now a floor on labour price, how about giving all those good ol' boys and girls a job instead of letting them rot on the dole?"
Great idea, I wholeheartedly agree! So what about the people who, when finally offered a job, say that while they've been born in an NHS hospital care of the taxpayer, educated to age 18 care of the taxpayer, then supported throughout their adult life by the taxpayer while contributing nothing, really don't want the job after all? Is that fair? Is that something society should tolerate? If the complaint about the rich is that they're people who take but never give, is it not hypocritical not to act on that at whatever level of society it's found?
No idea where you got the idea of warehousing wealth from, D~... um, what do you mean?
...and why Robin Hood wouldn't be so successful today
In 2013 or thereabouts, something weird happened in London. On the streets, in the bars and cafés, and many offices, the musical sounds of French became more common. The same happened in cities in Germany, Italy, not so much Belgium as half is already French-speaking, and Spain. What happened was that France's Hollande government introduced sweeping tax reform specifically targeting "the rich." It was intended to raise a significant tax windfall for France and help fix her untenable national deficit, as well as providing much needed funds for investment into various social projects.
What actually happened was that almost everyone affected by the new tax was also skilled enough and wealthy enough to leave. So the did, en masse. The tax harvest dropped significantly and the policy effectively failed. Similar things happened when the UK (albeit briefly) introduced a 50% tax rate on incomes above £150k per year. (The national median wage at the time was £26k per year).
I commented earlier that increasing mobility of the people is here to stay. Nowhere is that more true than for the rich. You have countries actively competing for the rich to become domiciled in their nation, so it's no longer true that you can hike the top rate of tax and expect to receive it. Residence and even nationality are becoming commoditised - my wife took a British passport because it was useful, not because of love of Britain. I keep mine for the same reason. Similarly, there are US citizens prepared to rescind their US nationality just to avoid your tax laws.
The idea of stripping the rich worked in the days when you could hold them still long enough. Sorry, Marxists - the 20th century happened. Rich and poor alike can be on the opposite side of the planet in 12 hours now.
Why I'm not a fan of modern Robin Hoods...
Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs sends a nice little letter every year to every single taxpayer showing how much of their tax, both in percent terms and cash terms, got spent on what. The single largest expense is on "welfare," excluding pensions, at 25%. (Pensions are another 13%).
Now I'm what Labour candidate Ed Milliband described as one of the "squeezed middle." I am too poor to afford the trickery that minimises tax bills. I am too rich to seek government support, even if I were the sort of person that would. So I have a giant target painted on my back labelled "cash cow."
Whenever someone talks up a plan to punish the rich, it's not going to be the rich that pay. They'll abscond, or hive their wealth off into a trust or corporation, or whatever else they can do. They won't pay. The poor receive, but do not pay. Who has to find the money?
People like me. And we're milked dry already...
... is not correctly paraphrased. I was saying that the rich ARE the central government.
It's about time the US funded presidential campaigns from the treasury, subject to an equal cap, and not from private donations and lobbyists. Otherwise all you get is richest man wins. As we've just seen.
I see you one ideal and raise you one reality. The UK offers free education - even free adult education in English and Maths if these are deficient. While the Thatcher government managed to decimate council housing stock, there is a very expensive benefits system in place to put people into privately-owned accommodation instead. Vocational opportunities? Those adult education centres again. When I walked into the local centre to ask about English lessons for my wife, it was almost empty. Or there's always the OU, which will give hardship bursaries to anyone who wants to learn but can't pay.
Guess what? It wasn't until the previous coalition government took a scythe to the unemployment benefits and starved people into work that they actually wobbled their butts out of Primark and into the offices and schools.
What I would do...
In reality, I have no idea.
I mentioned above that I was well down the road to poverty some years back. In casting around for ways out of my predicament, I found a UK-based forum on all things money, including how to escape the debt cycle - the information in there saved me from making an even bigger mistake. Then via the wives' network, a friend of mine learned of our predicament - now he's a smart chap, who does understand the rules of money. After a decent dressing-down over a couple of beers, he left me with a reading list, and I was finally enlightened...
The rules of money turn out to be very few and extremely simple. The only maths a man needs to understand them is that of a ten year old, and yet, as soon as we stick a £ or a $ in front of the number, all reason leaves our little ape brains and we treat it as if it's magic. It doesn't have to be so.
There's something about having some savings behind a person that makes them walk a little taller. They can tell their boss that the design is wrong, or that the product is bad. When "The Man" comes in at 5:30pm on a Friday and demands they work overtime, they can just flip the bird and leave.
And you can only get to that point if you understand the basic rules of money. Money is just a tool, but one that needs training to use well. So many people lead precarious lives, one missed pay cheque from disaster, because they haven't learned these basic principles. If they did, then the ability of "the rich" to use money as a weapon would be greatly diminished.
So I stayed on that financial forum to help out, one sob story at a time. They're "in front of me" so I might as well...
(Last paragraph edited as it went a little off-piste).
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The rich ARE most certainly the central government. Seems I misunderstood a bit of what you posted, sorry. When "the Man" demands something in America his will will be accomplished. What's left of our "welfare state" is nearly in tatters. Trump's gang are on their way to destroying those tatters.
Let the rich leave, let their assets remain.
I will admit that as long as the rich and the governments they run are in charge the job of curtailing them remains daunting.
I would not impoverish the rich. Simply reduce their assets to the point that private wealth is no long the basis of political power. As things are now money and those who have it buy our
reps.. As long as They buy them, they will never represent the will of the people.
My apologies K. I did not read all of your post as carefully as I should.
We can't fix this from here. We need a new start. We are seeing what a consumer life style brings
(along with personal debts, we've all been there k.!)
It does what it say it will do, Consumes!!
We need to develop motivations that don't eat our world in accomplishing them.
Alas, I think we've run out of time to effect reasonable solutions. I fear we will be instead met with natural solutions. As they are natural they will be without vindictiveness or mercy. They will simply reduces our numbers until we are no longer able to change what we don't yet understand.
I will admit that as long as the rich and the governments they run are in charge the job of curtailing them remains daunting.
I would not impoverish the rich. Simply reduce their assets to the point that private wealth is no long the basis of political power. As things are now money and those who have it buy our
reps.. As long as They buy them, they will never represent the will of the people.
My apologies K. I did not read all of your post as carefully as I should.
We can't fix this from here. We need a new start. We are seeing what a consumer life style brings
(along with personal debts, we've all been there k.!)
It does what it say it will do, Consumes!!
We need to develop motivations that don't eat our world in accomplishing them.
Alas, I think we've run out of time to effect reasonable solutions. I fear we will be instead met with natural solutions. As they are natural they will be without vindictiveness or mercy. They will simply reduces our numbers until we are no longer able to change what we don't yet understand.
We the [people have grown use to denying the unpleasing truths of our past. It was pretty easy to move them over to denying the present. But nobody gets to deny consequence. Consequence is what tells you if you've taken the right approach.
There will always be consequence to guide us. We can alway ignore or misidentify cause. But consequence always follows upon the REAL. Science only studies the real. Wisdom can only effect change though the real.
Because consequence is indifferent to "Alternate facts."
BTW
I misidentified the organization which is pressuring congressmen and Senators in their home districts.
They were founded by ex congressional aids and staffers that noticed that a million man m,arch was impressive but did little to change a Representatives position. Picketing their home district by the voters of that district works wonders as they know that if you come out now you will come out to vote if your made unhappy.
I've tried to look up their name but can't remember it to look it up...I'll update when it comes to me...
There will always be consequence to guide us. We can alway ignore or misidentify cause. But consequence always follows upon the REAL. Science only studies the real. Wisdom can only effect change though the real.
Because consequence is indifferent to "Alternate facts."
BTW
I misidentified the organization which is pressuring congressmen and Senators in their home districts.
They were founded by ex congressional aids and staffers that noticed that a million man m,arch was impressive but did little to change a Representatives position. Picketing their home district by the voters of that district works wonders as they know that if you come out now you will come out to vote if your made unhappy.
I've tried to look up their name but can't remember it to look it up...I'll update when it comes to me...